2L 8V Mk4 options. [Archives]

jacovw4

19/09/2001, 23h48

You see i have this dilema ?
To increase the power significantly i need or to sc or to go turbo. But From what i heard the turbo needs lots and lots of $$$ for it to perform NICELY and some experience in the field of tubos as for the neuspeed sc well its a bit expensive for the power output it gives. I mean for a $5000 unit that produces at the wheel 135hp well something is not right ??

So here i am trying to figure out how to make my car different from the others and knowing that a swap cost around 5-6k i could get aroud as much power as the other options BUT i want to make my car different and getting a vr6 engine or a 1.8t would just be a copy

I already ask rainnman about putting a s4 engine in my golf and he told me that it was possible. If so KNOWING that it would be practicly impossible to do this swap at a resonable price would getting the 2.8l v6 engine be more of a douable job and at what price !!

I would like to receive all your opinions, you might say that i am crazy but i need some direction THANKS

V33DUB

20/09/2001, 08h51

Swap a VR6 in and get a Z-Engineering SC :eek: That's a lot of $$. If you're really serious about power I would suggest you to go the turbo way. It will pay in the long run. Just start with a basic turbo kit around 6-8psi of boost. The 2l 8v seems born to be supercharged and you will be happy with that setup for a time. Since the power is addictive if you want more power and you have some more cash just get the whole job. Fully rebuild engine, lowered compression and increase the boost up to 15 or maybe 20psi http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/contrib/ruinkai/FIREdevil.gif I know a guy who run 20psi on his 8v but it is a car used for Solo event so I guess that a bit less boost for a daily driver would be just fine.
My 0.02!!

Kacey

20/09/2001, 08h59

I'd say turbo your 2.0l! You could squeeze some nice power out of that bad boy!

Lowlife8

20/09/2001, 09h29

It will depend on what exactly you are looking for. The Neuspeed SC gives a 40 Wheel ph increase and will be completely reliable. Yes there are other kits or options out thre but you have to consider reliability issues. If you swap anything in I would suggest a 1.8t. No offense to the VR6 guys but for the new generation the motor is dead! Things will probably change this year with the 24v six speed, but we'll have to wait and see I guess.

MAtt

Kacey

20/09/2001, 09h45

Matt...what do you mean by dead? Do you mean options for tuning? Or powerwise?

I'm a VR-holic...and i'd say go 1.8t as well!

Dropping a 2.7L Twin Turbo V6 sounds good as hell...but for around 10 000$ Definately not worth it!

1.8t swap-5000$
turbo upgrade-around 2500$
Wastegate, BOV, Boost Controller, Turbo downpipe, etc...-2500$

You'll be around 300 HP and faster than the 2.7t w/ intake, exhaust, chip cause of the weight! And better gas mialage too!

Dubguyvr6

20/09/2001, 12h15

Dead??? what do you mean?!?!?!? I think I'm gonna cry!! I respect your opinion, you just need to elaborate on what you meant by that, ok mon?

V33DUB

20/09/2001, 12h19

No offense to Neuspeed but their SC cost an arm and a leg. For 5000$ you get what...an increase of 50% on crank hp?? Sure the SC thing is kinda bolt it under the hood and forget it. Moreover it's guaranteed but for the same "investment" you could get a reliable turbocharged 8v pushing out 200+hp. I know where my money would go...where it's worth it. Personnal taste.

Lowlife8

20/09/2001, 12h35

By dead i mean that for tuning purposes, it has been surpassed by the 1.8t. It is heavy and adversly affects handling because of it. As for power, you can spend less and get more power out of it. Don't get me wrong: the sound and feel of the vr is wonderful and you will surely miss out on those aspects with a 1.8t. For my money I would drop in a 1.8t with out hesitation. If I was going to stay with a 2.0 8v I would use the neuspeed sc. yes it cost $5000, but it bolts on in under 3 hours, performs WELL (it won't blow you away but its a lot better than stock) has a garantie, and will be completely reliable for god knows how long. Then, with the sc add a good CAT BACK exhaust a kick ass suspension, 18" wheels and the rest of the goodies. What you end up is a unique, fun to drive reliable and DISCREET car. Again, this is only what I would do, but everyone has different opinions and that's what makes tuning so interesting. You can buy the same car as a thousand other people and make it your own with nice, quality parts.

Matt

Kacey

20/09/2001, 13h00

The Neuspeed SC is garbage! They did a comparison between a stock 1.8t and a SC'ed 2.0 and the 1.8t was still faster! I agree with the fact that there is a warranty on the charger but it does void the warranty on your car anyways...and that's what really matters..no? Go turbo! No doubt!

check out forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=34594 (http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=34594)

and (this one has all the info you could EVER need!! forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=34753 (http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=34753)

and this site is the main site for turbo'ed 2.0L 8v's: www.8vturbo.com (http://www.8vturbo.com)

Dubguyvr6

20/09/2001, 13h25

I dunno, if I had the choice between the 2L and the 1.8T, I'd go with the turbo. There's just something about spending 5000$ on a S/C and ONLY being able to keep up with a VR... bang for buck, but necesarilly reliability, I'd swap a 1.8T..

Lowlife8

20/09/2001, 13h39

Personally i would have bought a 1.8t from the dealer. I realie this is not always possible because of costs up front, but that would have been the way to do it. The only problem I have with swaps is finding the motor. Many of the motors that you find are stolen. I have seen too many people get screwed with stolen motors have them seized and what not. Also, as someone who has a a total of 3 cars stolen from my home driveway, I do not encourage theft. Yes, HP wise a 1.8t swap would probably be the way to go. As I stated before, you must amke up your mind as to what you want power wise and budget wise. To quote the old cliche "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

Matt

Kacey

20/09/2001, 15h21

Think about it like this...
If you swap engines, you will get 0$ for your 2.0L! So if that's what you plan to do...buy a turbo kit...run at 20 psi till you blow your 2.0l...then sell the turbo kit (very easy to do)...then SWAPPY SWAPPY.

Just for fun!!

Mk1GTIt

20/09/2001, 17h16

Check www.vwturbo.com

This site will answer all yer questions about where to get turbo parts and how much they cost. Hopefully someone from RMR will see this post and start distributing this company's turbo systems.

jacovw4

20/09/2001, 17h44

Great Guys that was very educative !! I like vrsik's idea your absolutely right when you say that if i swap i get 0$ back. Ill chek out the sites you guys posted to inform myself more but for right now i think turbo has a bit more weight on the balance. Another quetion: since i dont have the mechanical ability's for installation and preparation and all the glitches ill have from the turbo ... where should i go ( what garage )
Matt i know that rmr has the supercharger and i still might end up of purchasing it but do you think you can get turbos for 8v
Thank again everyone!!!
Jack

Lowlife8

20/09/2001, 18h31

As of now, we do not carry any product lines that offer turbos for the 8v. There have been a couple of leads on them though, and we are certainly open to carrying QUALITY, HEADACHE free products. we will not sell brick-a-brack systaems that are more trouble than they are worth though.

jacovw4

20/09/2001, 21h36

Can we modify the boost lvl on the neuspeed supercharger ??
Its set to give you 5 psi right ? but i heard they( neuspeed ) were trying to come with an intercooler witch i dont think is very necessary until your boost hits the 7psi ?? so whats up BOB ??
K Matt lets say i go with neuspeed s/c whats the best deal you can offer me. Cause it is very expensive and i understand that its a "QUALITY, HEADACHE free products" but i am a loyal customer to rmr everything i got 4 my car is from you guys....(hihihi) ;) :rolleyes:
( just bugging you )
But i would like to have a full price with install if possible to make a choice by summer .
Thanks

Lowlife8

20/09/2001, 23h20

I am writing this from home, but my recollection is that it sells for $5750 tax included, installed, the whole kit and kaboodle. I have heard talk about Neuspeed coming out with a smaller pulley to increase boost, and as far as I know, they are testing different sizes on the 2l 8v to see which one will give more hp with out blowing the thing up.

Matt

rainnman

21/09/2001, 01h01

Sorry for missing most of the discussion......:)

a swap is a great idea......the VR6 in 3.0l version will run around...4500$ + and give around 240hp (with chip and cams)and tons of torque..it weights less than 60 pounds more than a 1.8T assembly

a 1.8T is a great package....price differ depending on the market and avaibility.:)

a turbo upgrade from ATP will run around 5000 install

a S/C from Z-eng will be around 4500 but will give you about the same power as a 2.8l VR6 (171/177) install is fast and cheap$$

my personal favorite for sound and pure raw torque is the 3.0l.:)

Mk1GTIt

21/09/2001, 11h40

A turbo system from ATP will not cost you 5000. I know because I just bought mine from www.speedstyle.com in Ottawa. They distribute ATP systems, something the major tuning stores in Montreal should think about. I just purchased exhaust manifold,downpipe,tapped oil pan and the oil feed/return lines. total cost $1170.00CAD txs incl. shipped. I have about 1000 more in parts to buy for the turbo system to be complete.(a turbocharger with waste gate and intercooler/plumbing) As far as installation goes, any qualified mechanic should be able to fit it for less than 1000 dollars. you could actually install it yourself, people on VW vortex do it all the time with no problems. Id say that with installation and few other extras yer looking at a price of around $3500-4000.00CAD.

I seriously think that all your guys at Trac/RMR should look into selling these parts. We VW owners need access to more power adding parts. Straight engine swaps are cool and all but some of us like our orginal engines and just wanna give it a little more "sauce"! Id like to hear lowlife/rainnman's oponion on these systems and the posibility of their stores actually selling them.

Kacey

21/09/2001, 11h59

I remember last time i was at Trac 3 guys walked in and they were holding a box. They brought it behind the counter and one of the guys pulled out a Z-E Supercharger! I was like...Damn!!!

Anyways!! That's it!

jacovw4

21/09/2001, 14h52

i hope you were in a bad mood when you wrote that the neuspeed s/c cost $5700 cause if thats not the case then its really not worth it !!! @#%$ its expensive. I thought that it would come up to 5000tx and inst thats what JF told me ???(atleast last time i was at rmr ) But MAN it looks so good...:)

Rainnman si je fais un swap pour le 3.0l ta tu le moteur avec toi ou il faut que je le trouve moi meme puis je te l'apporte ??
et puis le turbo est il "reliable" ...

Kacey

21/09/2001, 15h17

Honestly....The SC is a waste of 5000$! And when you are done with it...I doubt you will be able to sell it for very much!

A 3.0l VR6 will probably cost you at least 8000$! But that would be one MEAN machine!! SEXXXXXY!

Mk1GTIt

21/09/2001, 15h48

Turrrrbo!Turrrrbo!Turrrrbo!:)

Kacey

21/09/2001, 16h00

Cost efficiency and bang for the buck and future happiness = TURBO! .....word!

Plus.. people with turbos are cool! And intercoolers make nice ass grills! :p

Mk1GTIt

21/09/2001, 16h09

Wheres rainnman/Lowlife8?

V33DUB

21/09/2001, 17h45

vrsik: you forget about the BOV sound too :D
schweeeet!

rainnman

21/09/2001, 20h04

sorry dudes!.:)

I was working...lol

the ATP Turbo system from ATP for a MKIV is around 5000 complete with everything!!

I'm for all parts that are genuinely research and developped the right way! Turbo and SC, NOS , swap you name it...we don't behind only one giant brand, we venture ansd test ourself, that is why we prefer a vortech type SC on a VW, it is an RPM sensitive unit that will give more as you climb (what a VW needs) contrary to a Eaton type that gives a lot down low( where a Honda/Acura) needs it..

Turbo are great but the customer needs to understand the full extend to a nicely design and developped system, its soo easy to start at 1200 bucks of parts and end up at 9000$ once we have to rebuilt the base at low C, and then there's the IC the software,etc....:)

NOS if the kit is nicely design ( and safe) and the customer is fully aware of the lows, this is by far the best bang for the bucks...just got to be VERY smart, educated, and disciplined...;)

jacovw4

21/09/2001, 21h34

GUYS the 3l does KICK ASS and even more when MR. RAINNMAN is driving. ( La ronde pffffff )
The soud of this car is soo sooooo sooooo hmmm...

Merci encore pour tout Steph.
Une fois mon choix fait et "l'argent ready of acces" je te tel. :)

Now i have to decide AND ITS NOT EASY...Ahhh<img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

Mk1GTIt

21/09/2001, 21h44

Rebuilding the bottom end is not part of the turbo system. If I include what it cost me to rebuild and modify the engine that Im gonna use then yes, my price will be somewhere at the 4500$ range Including the turbo system. You can safely run up to 9psi on a stock 2.0 aba and not worry about any problems. Only when you exceed 9psi does the project begin to get really expensive. Completely rebuilding the engine is not required to have a nicely designed/developed system.

I still dont feel that superchargers are as good as turbos for small 4 cylinder cars. superchargers take power to make power where as turbos are completely free. Now dont start saying that turbos have lag cause if you are to buy a properly setup system the 'lag' will be VERY minimal. People who complain about extreme turbo lag are people who havent driven a proper turbo system. Sure/ if you use a turbo from a dumptruck yer bound to experience a little lag!:)

Im not trying to stir up $hit, just my 0.02$

rainnman

22/09/2001, 00h49

Don't get me wrong I LOVE TURBO KITS!!!.....

but even when they are perfect they are still like an unfinished melody...you are enver finish improving/modifying them.....:) the possibilities are endless.....:lol:

as for the turbo kit from ATP....for a MKIV (2.0 8V) complete kit is 5000$, complete with I/C, BOV, WG, DP, OP, connectors etc...:)

Mk1GTIt

22/09/2001, 03h15

I suppose if you buy EVERYTHING from ATP, but you can source most of the parts from local shops.

All it takes is a little searching and you can find most of the parts at local scrap yards for a lot less than what youd buy at ATP.

Anyways, I value your opinion and appreciate any insight you may have, but what I really want to know is when you're gonna start selling ATP's products?

rainnman

22/09/2001, 09h51

we've already started.....;)

you are right for the sourcing of parts left and right , but its a bit harder for the MKIV, unless you want to start with a used turbo from the scrap yard and most guys are a bit scared of starting a kit with those.:)

jacovw4

22/09/2001, 18h29

Now whats the difference between the ATP turbo and the
Z-eng supercharger ( is there a big power difference )
I didnt know that there was a setup from z-eng. for MK4's
i cheked there site they seem to only have setups for mk3 and mk4 vr6 ??

Edmanvr6

22/09/2001, 22h52

JACOVW4, What kind of power gain are you looking for?
If you want a 35hp bolt-on sc kit that will not give you any troubles and will be very reliable,that will not need any tuning,will give you 35 extra hp, and you dont mind it taking 6000$ out your piggybankThen the neuspeed SC kit is for you.

If you don't want to spend 6000$ in 1 shot but don't mind spending more then that in the long run,and you want 50-100hp gain.GO TURBO.
But going turbo involvess lots of tuning that needs to be done by a pro or a guy that understand Turbos and the fuelling and timming they need.The turbo parts that http://www.vwturbo.com (http://http://www.vwturbo.com) sell are very good parts according to the people that have used them.They're parts are very ressenably prices and good quality.
You have to know in advanced that going turbo is not for everybody,Having a turbo in a non-turbo car reguiress lost of attention to make sure its always AND I MEAN always running perfect, Because you can blow you engine if you detonate under boost... And that can happen very fast if you're not paying any attention to your engine tuning.

I think Turbo's are the sh$t and i plan on going turbo soon but i'll be making my hone kit so it wont be to expensive, and i can tune it myself no problem.
I you need someone to make and install you a turbo kit just go see Luc At RMR,i'm sure he can build you a reliable kit for not to much $$$, or go see the TRAC guys i'm sure the can do some really nice work to.
I did a VR6 swap in my Golf 4 years ago, but if i had to do it again i whould go the turbo route insteed of the swap...
P.S. Some guys on vwvortex said that there mk3 2.0 8v running 7 psi with ATP parts are as faster than a stock mk3 vr6's.

Edmanvr6

22/09/2001, 23h07

Now whats the difference between the ATP turbo and the Z-eng supercharger ( is there a big power difference )
Well ATP turbo's can give you as much power that your wallet can afford.. I've seen dyno charts of stock 2.0 8v at 8psi intercooled,with 180hp to the wheels.That about 90hp gain to the wheels.
As for the Z-eng. supercharger it whould give you the same king of power a neuspeed SC does. My friend tried a vr6 with a z-eng sc in it and he said it did'nt feel much faster than a mod'ed vr6. Especcially considering he paid 7000$ for the sc.

Chris-R

24/09/2001, 18h18

We just installed a Z-Eng. supercharger in a super clean Corrado VR6 the other week. Pretty cool stuff.
The Neuspeed supercharger is for the customer who wants to install and forget. Is it expensive? Maybe. Will the turbo kit cost less in the long run? No way. I have gone that route with my last car and let me tell you, there are headaches and extra costs no matter what. The guys who build the cheap turbo kits are often just that: cheap. They may be able to slap a turbo on a manifold and make some nice bends but what about programming?
Turbo's are very cool (I just bought a 1.8T Passat myself!) but the caveat is the upkeep.

rainnman

24/09/2001, 20h26

Jack,

call me asap at the shop, I may have a GREAT news for U!!
would you like your project to be on TV?? I won't say more......;)

Dubguyvr6

24/09/2001, 21h40

I wonder what a 3.2L Bi-Turbo VR6 with a direct-port 250 shot of nitrous would be like....

One can only dream :)

rainnman

24/09/2001, 21h44

it would cost around 30,000$ and would necessitate a 4motion set up...uit would generate over 800hp and we would venerate the best forever!.:lol:

Dubguyvr6

24/09/2001, 22h02

Don't tempt me!!!!!
:rollin:

I think it would be safe to say that it would be the fastest streetable VW in the Montreal area too!
-Eric

rainnman

24/09/2001, 22h05

in america.....

rainnman

25/09/2001, 00h25

OH btw, software with our kits is never an issue as we use GIAC turbo software...;)

Mk1GTIt

25/09/2001, 00h37

here we go again!:D

jacovw4

25/09/2001, 00h42

hey rainnman c quoi ?? I cant wait till demain ???

rainnman

25/09/2001, 00h46

c'est trop hot Jack!!...you will love it!

as for GIAC I'm sorry...but any turbo or F/I system always gets into software problems...Giac has the programs we need to get into real set up tuning....;)

p.s. no it wasn't a pissing contest statement, although to some it will look like it. no dis meant!

Mk1GTIt

25/09/2001, 00h48

hehe Im just messing around, I couldnt care which chip you use as long as it gets the job done!

rainnman

25/09/2001, 00h50

thanks dude!..:) my thoughts too.......:lol:

rainnman

25/09/2001, 00h51

actuallly Jack get me your email...or icq me

jacovw4

25/09/2001, 00h53

ooooooo :rollin: cant wait
just 9 more hours
no wait 8:59

Kacey

25/09/2001, 10h23

Do I smell a project? oh yeah!!! It stinks like a project!

Next time Jack pops his hood (once steph is finished with him):
http://nemesiscom.de/vw/motor/jeremymotor.jpg

jacovw4

25/09/2001, 16h15

:) hey stephane i just called you but you were in meeting. Sorry could'nt reach you sooner but here is my e-mail
jacques@zorayan.com and you can reach me on msn at Jacques_zorayan@hotmail.com (sry i dont have icq)

VRSIK : WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW ;)

see ya!!

TheSpilDog

10/10/2001, 09h30

Hey everyone... I am new here. I just heard of this board. I can provide a little insight on this debate for the mk4 8 valve since I went through exactly what Jaco is going through. At first I was debating on a 1.8T swap, for some reason I didn't want to go that route. Then I was debating selling my car and buying a 1.8T but I had invested too much money on my car already so I decided to go turbo.

I drove down to Ottawa and saw the guys at speedstyle. I got the kit for 6800 Tax in installed with autometer air/fuel gauge, EGT gauge and boost gauge, I got a super60 turbo instead of the regular t3, I got a tuboXS BOV instead of that plastic one and some other extra little options.

I have to warn you that things will not go perfectly right a way. For example, after the initial install, I had a minor exhaust leak caused by the air pump holes. Then while driving home, the bolts on the downpipe came loose (solution to that problem was to tack weld the bolts since studs did not solve that problem either). After that, I have a loud exhaust leak type of sound under WOT, and I just figured it out (after 1-2 months) what it was. It was the downpipe rubbing against the steering rack. Solution to this is to upgrade to polyurethane rear inserts.

Furthermore, if you want to run more than 7-8 psi, you NEED to get a chip, which I did. I got ATP's chip with my g60 injectors so things run very smoothly now. You will need to go on the dyno to tune your fuel pressure regulator.

All in all, the turbo is WELL WORTH IT, however you NEED to be prepared to encounter little problems along the way and be patient. You will also need to upgrade other parts that will fail because of the turbo. Such as brakes (my pads had cracked from overheating), clutch etc...

I dynoed at 7 psi with 158 HP at the wheels and 180 tq at the wheels without chip and running too rich. I am going on friday to zeeckes to do a dyno tune at 9 psi. Will let you guys know of the results if you want.

You can go the thespildog.tripod.com (http://thespildog.tripod.com) to see my car. I will post some pics here too.

PS Can someone help me on posting pics here? I am not familiar with this software